and visa versa...

_________________
"I didn't want to be the monster! I didn't want to kill this room full of harmless children! I didn't want to lose everything I'd gained
in a lifetime of sacrifice and denial!
I wouldn't! She couldn't make me.
*EDWARD-Midnight Sun*

Cordelia wrote:

[Yes, after all Alice can't really control her gift the way Edward can. I think he was too worried about too many different things at once to put all of that together. Also it gave SM the chance to show how smart Bella is!

So glad you mentioned that. Its so awsome that Bella makes a great effort to scold Edward and put him in his place when his behavor toward his family members is clouded by his desperation. She is always there to balance him out.

She is so brave and strong minded . I think that will be a charectar gift when she has her "renovations".

Cordelia wrote:

shariwrites wrote: I agree with what almost everyone else has said. I thought the hardest moment for Edward was after Bella broke up with Jacob. I mean, he thinks he understands how it must have been when he left, but somehow, watching it all play out before him, it's almost too much. I get the impression he almost doesn't believe it was worse when he left. And yet he sits there with her. So sad, and yet such a great moment. I got this impression too, shariwrites, and it still really bothers me. I NEED Edward to know that what Bella went through losing him was infinitely worse. It doesn't make sense to me that Edward wouldn't already know that. We know he saw her coma in the woods moment from Jacob's mind, but wouldn't it stand to reason that Edward would also get Charlie's oral account from Alice? And also some visual memories from Charlie himself? After all, that's why Charlie dislikes Edward so much - he must have thought about his daughter's catatonic first week and months of walking zombie-ness at least once when Edward came over every night. Or maybe Mike in school thinking about Bella's zombiness. Or even Angela at lunch every day thinking how great it is Bella isn't upset anymore. I've never understood this!

Thanks for such a great discussion!! Nothing new here, just in agreement with when I was most sad for Edward. The pain of hurting someone you truly love is beyond description. Which brings me to remember SM's description of Bella's pain when she kept trying to physically hold herself together - I could feel my own insides breaking apart! Maybe it didn't sink in for Edward because it was so beyond his experience up to this point. Seeing something happen in the mind of others and actually experiencing the emotions first hand are very different. And maybe Edward's belief up to this point that Bella was better off without him and the HE wasn't worthy of HER caused him to rationalize through all of this. Just trying to read the mind of a fictional character ; I almost feel like I am defending him LOL!

_________________
"Bella," he murmured, his voice warm and velvet. "Would you please stop trying to take your clothes off?"

Michelle ma bella wrote:

Cordelia wrote: shariwrites wrote: I agree with what almost everyone else has said. I thought the hardest moment for Edward was after Bella broke up with Jacob. I mean, he thinks he understands how it must have been when he left, but somehow, watching it all play out before him, it's almost too much. I get the impression he almost doesn't believe it was worse when he left. And yet he sits there with her. So sad, and yet such a great moment. I got this impression too, shariwrites, and it still really bothers me. I NEED Edward to know that what Bella went through losing him was infinitely worse. It doesn't make sense to me that Edward wouldn't already know that. We know he saw her coma in the woods moment from Jacob's mind, but wouldn't it stand to reason that Edward would also get Charlie's oral account from Alice? And also some visual memories from Charlie himself? After all, that's why Charlie dislikes Edward so much - he must have thought about his daughter's catatonic first week and months of walking zombie-ness at least once when Edward came over every night. Or maybe Mike in school thinking about Bella's zombiness. Or even Angela at lunch every day thinking how great it is Bella isn't upset anymore. I've never understood this! Thanks for such a great discussion!! Nothing new here, just in agreement with when I was most sad for Edward. The pain of hurting someone you truly love is beyond description. Which brings me to remember SM's description of Bella's pain when she kept trying to physically hold herself together - I could feel my own insides breaking apart! Maybe it didn't sink in for Edward because it was so beyond his experience up to this point. Seeing something happen in the mind of others and actually experiencing the emotions first hand are very different. And maybe Edward's belief up to this point that Bella was better off without him and the HE wasn't worthy of HER caused him to rationalize through all of this. Just trying to read the mind of a fictional character ; I almost feel like I am defending him LOL!

I think yhou're making a great point here... He still doesn't think he's worthy. And even though he saw those thoughts through people's minds, he wasn't living through them.. and she also started to fall in love with Jacob. Maybe to Bella or us it's not like moving on, but he probably thought of that as a sign that she was.

Michelle ma bella wrote:

Cordelia wrote: shariwrites wrote: I agree with what almost everyone else has said. I thought the hardest moment for Edward was after Bella broke up with Jacob. I mean, he thinks he understands how it must have been when he left, but somehow, watching it all play out before him, it's almost too much. I get the impression he almost doesn't believe it was worse when he left. And yet he sits there with her. So sad, and yet such a great moment. I got this impression too, shariwrites, and it still really bothers me. I NEED Edward to know that what Bella went through losing him was infinitely worse. It doesn't make sense to me that Edward wouldn't already know that. We know he saw her coma in the woods moment from Jacob's mind, but wouldn't it stand to reason that Edward would also get Charlie's oral account from Alice? And also some visual memories from Charlie himself? After all, that's why Charlie dislikes Edward so much - he must have thought about his daughter's catatonic first week and months of walking zombie-ness at least once when Edward came over every night. Or maybe Mike in school thinking about Bella's zombiness. Or even Angela at lunch every day thinking how great it is Bella isn't upset anymore. I've never understood this! Thanks for such a great discussion!! Nothing new here, just in agreement with when I was most sad for Edward. The pain of hurting someone you truly love is beyond description. Which brings me to remember SM's description of Bella's pain when she kept trying to physically hold herself together - I could feel my own insides breaking apart! Maybe it didn't sink in for Edward because it was so beyond his experience up to this point. Seeing something happen in the mind of others and actually experiencing the emotions first hand are very different. And maybe Edward's belief up to this point that Bella was better off without him and the HE wasn't worthy of HER caused him to rationalize through all of this. Just trying to read the mind of a fictional character ; I almost feel like I am defending him LOL!

Well, I do like the idea that Edward was able to rationalize the visions he may have seen in others' minds. It does sound classically Edward to see himself as unworthy of Bella - but we know for a fact that the vision Jacob gave Edward really hurt him and shocked him with the severity of Bella's pain. So we know Edward is able to differentiate between issues of his own self-worth and seeing what is in front of his mind's eye. Michelle ma bella, I think you hit the nail on the head with the bolded portion of your post - when Edward witnessed Bella's tears first-hand it had a greater immediate impact than seeing a non-teary, calm, functioning though comatose Bella suffering through something that has since been resolved. Maybe to Edward's mind the tears and his own feelings of being inadequate for Bella combined and made him think that Bella would change her mind and go to Jacob in the end? Maybe to Edward's non-human mind tears = more pain than zombieness? Still, I need him to know without a shadow of a doubt that the only unrecoverable loss for Bella was Edward - at one night of crying, Jacob didn't even come close. I think that knowledge would make Edward feel more secure in Bella's love and he deserves that.

_________________
"I am purely full of joy, because I am missing nothing. No one has more than I do now."

I think Edward realizes more than TW, NM, EC let's us believe. When we get MS... I believe we will have better insight into how much he truly realizes.

_________________
"I didn't want to be the monster! I didn't want to kill this room full of harmless children! I didn't want to lose everything I'd gained
in a lifetime of sacrifice and denial!
I wouldn't! She couldn't make me.
*EDWARD-Midnight Sun*

I can't remember how Edward put it before the Vote. It was something to the point that ' Bella handled it much better than him. She at least tried to go on with her life. He just let the pain take him and he was useless.'

_________________
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds- Albert Einstein

Loyalty to petrified opinions never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul- Mark Twain

Joanne Maria wrote:

I think Edward realizes more than TW, NM, EC let's us believe. When we get MS... I believe we will have better insight into how much he truly realizes.

Yes, MS will definitely give us some insight.

I just finished Eclipse for the 3rd time and even when Edward is comforting Bella and he questions her as to whether she made the right choice, and she tells him she knows who she can't live without, he still questions it.

Cordelia, I don't know if you will ever get that certainty from Edward. Maybe part of it is this is still a new experience for him. Everything is new - comforting Bella's broken heart and having someone love him so deeply as she does. He went so long without it, I think he still questions it.

And I am remembering MS and TW and how much Edward absolutely loathed himself when he first met Bella. Even at the end of Eclipse that I mentioned above, his behavior suggests that he still questions how Bella could love someone like him. He has never forgiven himself for what he is and the people he killed in the past, bad guys or not. Her love has really allowed him to see himself so differently and its definitely been a journey for him. I don't know if he even thought he was capable of loving someone like he loves Bella. Maybe this is one of his flaws - his inability to love and accept himself. Bella is helping him move closer to this. I am hoping he will get there in BD.

_________________
"Bella," he murmured, his voice warm and velvet. "Would you please stop trying to take your clothes off?"

Hello all! I was just catching up and was very interested in the topic above about why Edward thought that the night she cried about Jacob was worse than his leaving when he could already see the pain Bella went through in everyone's mind. Remember in Midnight Sun when he's talking about not knowing what was so special about this plain girl that he'd been seeing in everyone's mind all day. Cordelia, I think you're right, when he sees first hand, the tears, it's so much worse than people's muted images they have in their mind that he's seen. Edward already thinks people are so predictable with what they think. Maybe their thoughts, even though Jacob's did hurt him, don't do Bella's pain justice and to see the raw hurt of losing Jacob in front of him was just much more powerful.

I think the worst moment for Edward was when he thought that Bella was dead. Bella crying over Jacob, and Jacob "keeping Bella warm" would likely go on his top 10 worst nights. But the night he thought Bella was dead is likely #1. The scene that SM wrote in Edward's point of view on her website, showing Edward when he heard the news, is definitely worth reading.

Quickening wrote:

I think the worst moment for Edward was when he thought that Bella was dead. Bella crying over Jacob, and Jacob "keeping Bella warm" would likely go on his top 10 worst nights. But the night he thought Bella was dead is likely #1. The scene that SM wrote in Edward's point of view on her website, showing Edward when he heard the news, is definitely worth reading.

Yes...it is one of the best pieces I have read...right up there with MIDNIGHT SUN chap 1

_________________
"I didn't want to be the monster! I didn't want to kill this room full of harmless children! I didn't want to lose everything I'd gained
in a lifetime of sacrifice and denial!
I wouldn't! She couldn't make me.
*EDWARD-Midnight Sun*

Michelle ma bella wrote:

Cordelia, I don't know if you will ever get that certainty from Edward. Maybe part of it is this is still a new experience for him. Everything is new - comforting Bella's broken heart and having someone love him so deeply as she does. He went so long without it, I think he still questions it. And I am remembering MS and TW and how much Edward absolutely loathed himself when he first met Bella. Even at the end of Eclipse that I mentioned above, his behavior suggests that he still questions how Bella could love someone like him. He has never forgiven himself for what he is and the people he killed in the past, bad guys or not. Her love has really allowed him to see himself so differently and its definitely been a journey for him. I don't know if he even thought he was capable of loving someone like he loves Bella. Maybe this is one of his flaws - his inability to love and accept himself. Bella is helping him move closer to this. I am hoping he will get there in BD.

heartstops4EC wrote:

Hello all! I was just catching up and was very interested in the topic above about why Edward thought that the night she cried about Jacob was worse than his leaving when he could already see the pain Bella went through in everyone's mind. Remember in Midnight Sun when he's talking about not knowing what was so special about this plain girl that he'd been seeing in everyone's mind all day. Cordelia, I think you're right, when he sees first hand, the tears, it's so much worse than people's muted images they have in their mind that he's seen. Edward already thinks people are so predictable with what they think. Maybe their thoughts, even though Jacob's did hurt him, don't do Bella's pain justice and to see the raw hurt of losing Jacob in front of him was just much more powerful.

Thanks Michelle and heartstops! I think you're right - Edward still feels so unworthy of Bella's love (as we saw through what he said to Charlie about it being a miracle that Bella loves him the same way) and maybe he just can't fathom Bella's pain because of that. Plus seeing emotions in person versus as a muted memory must make a huge difference.

I'm confident that - although Bella and Edward will always be in awe that the other loves her/him so much - by the end of BD each will feel worthy of such love. I think it's a necessary part of their path to life as a married couple.

_________________
"I am purely full of joy, because I am missing nothing. No one has more than I do now."

redsweater wrote:

There are so many times but I think mine is the obvious. When he's holding Bella, while she's crying for Jacob. That must have been beyond hard. I think Stephenie said it was his own personal hell.

I agree with this one.......this had to be horrible for Edward. I will comfort you Edward.

_________________

Quote:

I agree with this one.......this had to be horrible for Edward. I will comfort you Edward.

LOL! Very nice, babyrt! I needed a good laugh, thanks!

_________________
"Bella," he murmured, his voice warm and velvet. "Would you please stop trying to take your clothes off?"

babyrt wrote:

I agree with this one.......this had to be horrible for Edward. I will comfort you Edward.

Haha - I think there will be a long line of us to comfort Edward, lol!

_________________
"I am purely full of joy, because I am missing nothing. No one has more than I do now."