I've been meaning to start this thread for a while, but have waited because 1) there's really no good category for it, and 2) I've been trying to get my arms around this. So, from another thread:

http://twilightmomsforums.freeforums.org/bella-s-power-t101-555.html

I'm really starting to think that there's something to this idea. That there is something significant about the AURA of the creating vampire. It's not just the venom.

On pages 454-5 of Twilight:

Carlisle: "He bit her"

Alice: "Edward, you have to do it"

Edward: "No!"

Carlisle: "There may be a chance"

Edward: "What?"

Carlisle: "See if you can suck the venom back out"

So, Edward wasn't considering sucking the venom out when he bellows "No!". Alice had to be telling him he had to bite Bella. Why? Because James's AURA would not be around while his venom was changing Bella, and that would lead to disastrous consequences?



But James lived for a minute or so after he bit Bella, so wouldn't it work the same? Or, is it one of two other possibilities:

1. We don't have the whole truth about how Carlisle was changed. There's something fishy (doesn't pass the smell test) about the story Edward told Bella. Why would a vampire in London be so hungry that he would turn around and attack Carlisle? London would have easy pickings; vampires that live there should be very well-fed. And, I'm about positive we don't have the whole truth about how Alice was changed.

2. Since James was destroyed by Emmett and Jasper, therefore his AURA was destroyed, do the Cullens believe that that would cause James's venom to kill Bella, rather than change her? Do vampires believe that they die if their creator is destroyed?

another thought.. is it possible that James' venom might cause Bella to have a harder time adjusting to life as a vampire as he's a non veggie vampire? It's off the wall but it's a thought, while we're throwing theories around..

I think an argument could be made for that. It would force people to give up a lot of widely held paradigms. However, with the acceptance of the fact that the characters in this book lie, those paradigms may go by the wayside.

Maybe, if it was Edward that created Alice, (still not 100% on that) that is why she was telling Edward he had to "do it now"--because she knows the consequences. As well, that could explain her desparation to get to Italy to stop Edward from his suicide (aside from the obvious loving sister excuse). If Edward dies, what would happen to Alice? I would have to think Edward wouldn't be aware of this consequence because he and Alice are so uniquely bonded. He would never put her in jeopardy- Right?

Another thing-
Alice said that the venom doesn't kill. It changes, transforms, and heals-all while causing excruciating pain. So I don't know that Bella would have been killed by his venom, but I wonder if there is a "fate worse than death" consequence.
Just throwing things out there right now--Trying to hone in on this one.

I think a "fate worse then death" for Bella would be the fact that she turns into the monster that she so desparetly does not want to be. She is so afraid in Eclipse of being like the newborns in Seattle. Could it be possible that there was something in Jamess' venonm that would prohibit Bella from following the "vegetarian" diet, and Alice could see that? I don't know that I like the fact that if the vampire who changes you ceases to be that you do too...it's a great theory though ! Something to keep me up tonight pondering!

I struggle with it too!

Bella has no idea what she will be like if she becomes a newborn. She may be like Jasper (and we know his history) and forever struggle with the veggie life.
But as I think about it, a "weak with hunger" vampire bit Carlisle, and he became a veggie vampire, (though part of his moral compass played into it). Why would the London sewer vamp be weak with hunger if he wasn't a conscientous vamp? 1600's London was stuffed full of people and vamps consider humans as part of the food chain. If he was hungry, he must have been abstaining.
Edward was created by Carlisle, as was Rose, Esme and Emmett. They all follow Carlisle's example. (Though Emmett has slipped and Edward had his rebel years).
Alice may have bitten by a vampire of the same belief system because what vampire would work in a hospital unless he was abstaining, and she adheres to the same philosophy.
So, does it matter what vamp changes you? What were they concerned about-venom wise- in the ballet studio?

Carlisle: "He bit her"

Alice: "Edward, you have to do it"

Edward: "No!"

Edward sure seems to know what Alice is talking about there. And Alice may not have told Bella the full truth, that the biter must be in the presence of the bitee, or at least alive, for the venom to work properly. Maybe she just didn't think it was important, or maybe there was some reason why she withheld the info. But even Bella seems to know there's something more involved. Later on, she is determined that Edward be the one to change her, she even states she wants his venom in her veins.

I thought about the problem that, if Edward committed suicide, he would know he was taking Alice with him. I agree, that would be out of character for him, but then suicidal people don't consider the consequences to anyone else. Read his mood on this New Moon Extra "The whole world was meaningless". And that was before Rosalie had told him Bella had died. I just looked at page 425 of New Moon, where Alice is talking on the phone to Jasper, and she promises that him that one way or another, she'll get out. Then, she gets off the phone, and says "I hate lying to him". Lying to him, because she knows what will happen if Edward dies?

Or, consider this scenario. Maybe James did tell the truth and the old vampire bit Alice, and James destroyed him. Edward happened to be there, and saw the "fate worse than death, and he bit Alice to "fix" the problem. Now, with Bella, history is repeating itself.

OOHHH MMYYYY GGOOOSSSSHHHH! OK. I'm with it now!
Lots of goodies to consider.

OHHH that is so good FRankie! TFS!!!!

ok-- But, they are all in agreement that the venom needs to be out, so they shouldn't think the biting vamp's venom would be neutralized by death, otherwise they would have done nothing. Right?

Right.

Wait...I'm so lost here. How did we come up with the idea that Edward bit Alice? I totally, 100%, disagree with this. I don't think that's something that Stephenie would be hiding from us. It really doesn't make sense to me why it'd be a secret either. Sorry, but I'm seriously not buying that one...

About the phone call that Alice makes to Jasper...I think she explains it exactly how it is.

"I promised him I would get out before they killed me, too. It's not something I can guarantee-not by a long shot."

She doesn't claim it to be impossible, only a long shot...

As for Alice telling Edward he "has to do it"...They talk about biting closer to the heart to make the change faster...If Bella was only bit in the hand, maybe there's a chance the venom would kill her...I think they were telling Edward he needed to bite her...On Twilight page 414 Alice says:

"It takes a few days for the transformation to be complete, depending on how much venom enters to the heart. As long as the heart keeps beating, the poison spreads, healing, changing the body as it moves through it. Eventually the heart stops, and the coversion is finished. But all that time, every minute of it, a victim would be wishing for death."

I'm not sure I have the right answer, but I seriously don't think that it had anything to do with them killing James. I'm sure the Cullens would've mentioned this at some point. And would Edward really go try to commit suicide, KNOWING that it would kill Alice too??? I just can't believe that he ever would! No matter how much grief he was feeling, I know he would NEVER do that to Alice. Seriously, I just don't think that who made you has anything to do with whether or not you'll survive. I believe that James killed Alice's creator years ago, before she even knew of the Cullens...

Could the "fate worse than death" be the memory loss?

http://twilightmomsforums.freeforums.or ... t3539.html


Chapter 13 Eclipse:

Jasper: "I was preparing to destroy my only ally. The core of my existence".

He's talking about Maria, his creator.

As well, we had talked once about how the newborns must be "connected" to their creator somehow--otherwise, how could Vic and Riley have kept any kind of rein on all those newborns in Seattle? They are supposed to be wild, but even as they went out and fed in the city, they came back to "headquarters" where Vic was. Why didn't they just escape off on their own? Vampires don't naturally congregate.

And, again, this SM quote from the lex feeds the "suspicion" fire

Alice is a true friend to Bella. But you don't understand the ties that bind her to Edward. This is not the average brother-sister relationship we're talking about. The Cullens are bonded beyond anything you can imagine, Alice and Edward more than the rest. They would kill for each other without a thought. They would suffer for each other, they would die for each other. When Edward makes a demand of his family--something this important to him--they can't refuse him. When Edward demands that Alice give her word, despite her misgivings, she cannot refuse. He would do the same for her if Jasper was involved. Though Alice is Bella's friend, Edward's claim on Bella's life and welfare is something far beyond that. It's sort of a vampire thing, and will be alluded to more in the future.

Would Bella have been bound to James in a similar way?
What is tripping me up here is, Carlisle doesn't "control" the vamps he made. Edward isn't "under" him. Is it a male/female thing?

Calicat, I agree with you. That’s what prompted this big long post from me (I apologize to all of you in advance....)
As far as what Shimmerskin had posted, if this were true, then certainly the vampire that had done the biting would only have to be present for a second or two; the reaction from the E-M field of the vampire would immediately set the change in motion. Very interesting discussion.
However, I personally think everyone is just really looking way too far into things.

The only thing happening here is that Alice is just trying to get Edward to bite Bella in order to speed up the change - the less venom, the longer it takes and the more painful it is. I don’t think it has anything to do with James. There is no evidence to support the idea that the original vampire has to be present for the change to be successful; actually quite the opposite. Carlisle was definitely not with the vampire that bit him, nor was he with any other vampire, so there’s the proof. Aside from that, if there was some deep dark secret about Carlisle’s transformation, do you really think Edward would have been so eager to have Carlisle or himself educate Bella on Carlisle’s history? Edward could have just brushed it off after he told Bella about the cross at the top of the stairs and moved on. Edward is not one to readily share info on a topic that he wants to keep off limits from Bella.
As far as the vampire that bit Carlisle being so hungry - it had been explained that back then people still believed in vampires, witches, and werewolves, and that Carlisle & his father were both actively hunting them, and most likely this was the trend at that time. Vampires, etc. had to hide out more then, and probably abstain more, to stay undetected; it’s also highly possible that the vampires in the sewers knew that Carlisle had discovered their hiding place, so they were perhaps trying to stay out of view. They didn’t go out in the daytime, and they were being actively hunted at nighttime. They probably stretched out feedings as much as possible.
No, I don’t think vampires believe or would actually die if their creator died. Simply put, Alice’s creator died. No one else “re-bit” Alice - I’m sorry, but come on. Edward was not there. No one was there - she woke up alone. Again, Edward was not there, and for those that think he was and that he felt bad for Alice so he “re-bit” her, do you really think he’d just leave her to wake up alone, potentially unleashing a completely wild, rabid newborn into the world? No, no he would not. Besides, Edward was not there. Alice had her vision of Jasper & the Cullens immediately upon waking, so that’s why she knew she could survive on a vegetarian diet.
As far as the trip to Italy, the only thing going on was that Alice loves Edward, as do all of the Cullens, and they simply did not want to see him destroy himself. Her phone conversation with Jasper on the plane meant only one thing: that she was fairly certain that she wouldn’t make it out because the Volturi would associate her with Edward and they would destroy her too (remember, that’s why she told Bella that the rest of the siblings could not come to help them). She hated lying to him for no other reason that the fact that she knew the Volturi would most likely finish her and probably Bella off too.
Oh yeah, and about Jasper: “I was preparing to destroy my only ally. The core of my existence.”
Yes, he was talking about Maria, so doesn’t this prove even more that this whole theory of not being able to exist without the vampire that bit you isn’t true anyway? I mean, why would he kill Maria if he knew he’d essentially be killing himself. He had been thinking of killing Maria so that he could escape and live a different life, so obviously he wasn’t planning on dying himself.
Lastly, the whole newborn connection thing, as mentioned before about Victoria & Riley. I think they probably had a similar set up to what Jasper’s history involves, only they didn’t have complete control. There were all those deaths in Seattle; it’s most likely they were keeping the newborns under lock & key somewhere, and “rewarding” them with feedings, as was done with Jasper’s army (Victoria did after all get this idea after being in TX). It’s entirely possible that either a newborn or two escaped here or there and got loose in the city, or more likely, Riley was the one leaving corpses around and being careless (he was pretty much a newborn himself, only being a year old, and he was in charge - the newborns never even saw Victoria).
Alright, I think I covered it all. Sorry about that. I don’t know why, but I had to get all that out. I really wasn’t trying to rain on the parade or anything.