If you define epic as encompassing universal themes, archaetypical characters, and plot lines that still work across time ---Yes. To watch Bella and Edward (and even Jacob) on their quest for identity and love, and to constantly battle against external and internal forces across 2000+ pages----Yes.

Joanne Maria wrote:



This goes with what I was asking several pages back. King Arthur's society couldn't handle Lancelot and Guinevere stepping out of the Great Chain of Being (social heirarchy). Juliet's audience could handle her defying her father. Tony & Maria were up against society's prejudices. These stories had to end in tragedy because the audience was ready for the theme yet. So are we ready for rules that have to be broken for Bella and Edward, or is Bella right and she's stuck with Mike, the only human boy?

Wow I wish my brain could work this way ladies wonderful thought as usual I had to read it twice to understand.

This last little bit I do not do well with unhappy endings no I will not burn the books but I will be very sad and it will take me awhile to get over. In fact Romeo and Juliet is very wonderful story but I have a very hard time watching it because of that I don't hate it and I have watched it but my heart can not handle it.

I think that is why I am so much into the Disney versions of the fairytales because the end happy and maybe that is why I am such a Disney fanatic because it is so happy I have a very hard time with sad endings that is why I am holding to she made the host a happy ending so Breaking dawn has to end up happy maybe this is why I stay away from most books or maybe I just don't understand them.

Also why Pride and prejudice, sense and sensibility all of those that end happy I love

I am scared very scared and as we get closer it only gets worse I am driving myself crazy

lauralee:
YES...I think more are than not...I for one have always been ready for broken rules...

AMIE:


I am a crier also...I saw TITANIC 1x and refuse to watch it again...I even cry at DISNEY...NEMO was a very sad movie to me, however, I believe that STEPH (like EDWARD) will break all the rules!!! and give us a happy ending...

HA! You ought to go over here as well and try to resurrect the conversation!
http://twilightmomsforums.freeforums.or ... t3837.html We were originally supposed to talk about the whole hero journey but never really got around to it.

I will definitely check it out. Can't believe I haven't seen it already. Have you seen this one?
http://twilightmomsforums.freeforums.org/archetypes-in-twilight-t9423.html

That's wild! Some friends and I started working on the same stuff on another fan site about 10 days before your thread got going, but it is basically the same discussion...plugging in characters and trying to fill in the gaps that will lead to the end!

There is a wealth of ideas being discussed in this thread. Ladies, you have beautiful minds. There is so much I want to say but where do I begin?

Who do I quote? You are all so wonderfully spoken/written.

I think that the idea of feminism is very confining for women. Woman, as many of you have expressed, should define herself in her own eyes and not what society deems (whether that society consist of feminists or other vocal factions.) Women have asserted themselves in our society whether it be in the field of molecular research, engineering or in the rearing of children. Modern society tells us that it is all about the self. Edward reminds the reader that all things must be considered. One must be thoughtful to what is expected. Bella is less traditional. Overall both believe that women and men must do what they believe will lead them to the truth of who they are and what they feel they must do to improve the society in which they live. Bella has two choices:
to be married to Edward (who represents part of the tradition) and to become a vampire (satisfying the modern society of fulfilling a personal goal) OR to remain human, get an education the traditional way, have a career and be married to a Mike Newton. The choice reflects whether the former is correct for Bella in the society she lives. The question could also be "would it be wrong for her to give up Edward?" It may very well be. I think Shimmerskin posed this thought earlier. I've reflected and will continue to do so, but here are more thoughts:
The love Bella and Edward have is beyond the ordinary. It has reached, and I suspect will continue to reach, a greater spiritual height--one that goes beyond the two of them. Why would an interspecies marriage be wrong other than that it offers no procreativity? Of course marriage encompasses within it, for most traditions, that children be fruits of unions. Their union therefore would be fruitless as society expects.
And yet would it? Who can say that Carlisle's long life has not been fruitful? Life- giving and saving throughout the centuries.
Also, that same society would view it perfectly correct and reasonable for a couple to form their own lives. It is correct for Bella to leave her family. Renee sanctions it in the first chapter of BD. The scripture "For a man will leave his mother and woman leave her home. They shall travel onto where the two shall be as one" plays perfectly in my mind here. And if Bella chooses to transform she will not be leaving family life. Who can forget the Book of Ruth: "Your people will be my people..." Bella and Edward would be doing just that. They come to each other in a state of physical and spiritual purity. Their love is pure. There is no duplicity of love potions. There is no Belle Dame Sans Merci, playing with the emotions of a knight in agony. It is unadulterated. There really isn't a princess and a prince charming--just two souls who need to be with each other, who need to rescue each other, who are ready to sacrifice their lives to spare the other.

If Edward could become human he would pay any price. As CS Lewis would say, (The Four Loves) Bella and Edward pay homage to Eros. But they do not forget their family. Renee has moved on somewhat. Perhaps Charlie will fall in love. Things will work out.
Bella, in her marriage to Edward and her change, if one does occur, will become a new creation. But so will Edward. Their unity will be a new creation. There will be an unexpected bridging of sorts. Bella will be the unifying force between species that detested each other. I see it going in that direction. The lion and the lamb will be at peace with each other. They will accept each others differences and learn to coexist with each other. This is one of SM's great themes: that species (all people) can coexist, can learn to live together. We see this in The Host. The ideas of coexistence, acceptance, seeking to understand, non violent, peaceful solutions. If anything Bella and Edward's unprecedented unity will be what the society in which they live needs. Hopefully, the treaty between wolves and vampires will no longer be needed. If anything Bella and Edward's union, pure of heart, and a true example of love, would be uplifting and just what I believe their society needs.

Thank you, Innamorata. Your thoughts are beautiful and humbling. I've got a tear in my eye after reading your words. Thank you so much for being here and sharing.

Please excuse me for bolding certain parts of your quote, but they are just so meaningful to me. I have spent a lifetime trying to communicate this message.

Thank you, thank you, for putting into such perfect phrasing what my heart tries to sing.

Thanks Shimmerskin and Joanne Maria, I am honored and deeply touched by your responses.

Innamorataaditwilight, that was so beautifully put. Yes, the fruit of one's life need not be children. Family is a bigger word, and one's society is even bigger. Bella takes care of everyone (even adopting Jacob as a little brother), Edward is a vampire with a conscience (even environmentally aware). Their love will yield fruit, and if that is society's only exception to their being together, then such a storyline can (should) certainly work with today's audience. The union of Bella and Edward has society's blessing, not just the fans.

Thanks Lauralee. I wonder if SM will agree with us. I certainly hope so.

Wll, SM certainly fractured a few fairy tales. First foremost, she left the fairy tale narrative outline behind and went with a completely different storytelling genre. But looking over our most recent discussion, I'm copying some phrases from the immediate posts above:

*Yes, the fruit of one's life need not be children. Family is a bigger word, and one's society is even bigger. Bella takes care of everyone (even adopting Jacob as a little brother), Edward is a vampire with a conscience (even environmentally aware). Their love will yield fruit, and if that is society's only exception to their being together, then such a storyline can (should) certainly work with today's audience. The union of Bella and Edward has society's blessing, not just the fans.

*If Edward could become human he would pay any price. As CS Lewis would say, (The Four Loves) Bella and Edward pay homage to Eros. But they do not forget their family. Renee has moved on somewhat. Perhaps Charlie will fall in love. Things will work out.
Bella, in her marriage to Edward and her change, if one does occur, will become a new creation. But so will Edward. Their unity will be a new creation. There will be an unexpected bridging of sorts. Bella will be the unifying force between species that detested each other. I see it going in that direction. The lion and the lamb will be at peace with each other. They will accept each others differences and learn to coexist with each other. This is one of SM's great themes: that species (all people) can coexist, can learn to live together. We see this in The Host. The ideas of coexistence, acceptance, seeking to understand, non violent, peaceful solutions. If anything Bella and Edward's unprecedented unity will be what the society in which they live needs. Hopefully, the treaty between wolves and vampires will no longer be needed. If anything Bella and Edward's union, pure of heart, and a true example of love, would be uplifting and just what I believe their society needs.

*If you define epic as encompassing universal themes, archaetypical characters, and plot lines that still work across time ---Yes. To watch Bella and Edward (and even Jacob) on their quest for identity and love, and to constantly battle against external and internal forces across 2000+ pages----Yes.

*King Arthur's society couldn't handle Lancelot and Guinevere stepping out of the Great Chain of Being (social heirarchy). Juliet's audience could handle her defying her father. Tony & Maria were up against society's prejudices. These stories had to end in tragedy because the audience wasn't ready for the theme yet. So are we ready for rules that have to be broken for Bella and Edward, or is Bella right and she's stuck with Mike, the only human boy?

I'm so glad that this thread resurfaced! I feel so much smarter just by reading it.

I truely think that this would have been a great opportunity to show that "the fruit of one's life need not to be one's children." (BEAUTIFULLY said, btw!) I think that adding in Nessie totally cheapens any sacrifice that Bella had previously made. I also feel bad for Rosalie and Esme. I know that they are insanely happy for Bella, but I think it would still hurt a little.

As for the last point, I don't know if I was able to handle such a happy ending. I wanted a bit of tragedy. Not as much as Romeo and Juliette, but some.

As one who has dealt with infertility, it bothered me that there was underlying theme via Rosalie, Bella and Leah that a woman does not experience humanity without giving birth. Maybe that's just my baggage. I'm not sure how that relates to the fairytale--but I wanted to throw that in response to the previous post, now I can't remember the tie-in because my kids just came telling me all about Bible school and I've lost my train of thought and I'm just going to ramble and kill the intelligence of this thread-----okay?