Personally I don't know how anyone could not LOVE the Twilight books, but I am obsessed so who knows. I've always loved all things vampire (read Ann Rice, loved Buffy and Angel and I think there was this old show called Dark Shadows when I was younger...) but Stephanie did something truly amazing by letting us see that not all vampires are the same! I love that! Its a philosophy so greatly needed for so many issues plaguing us today! (So maybe these "haters" are the James, Laurent, Victoria types...out for mischief never understanding that there is another way!)I think that the people who take issue with this, have maybe lost hope. Maybe lost the memory of that excitment that comes with being in love. That makes me sorry for them. So I just say, don't read the negative stuff! Or if you have to take it with a grain of salt...not every can be enlightened! (well hopefully some day.... )
Go Bella!

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Also, just a friendly reminder that, although what's been said so far is fine, this conversation could lead to others coming in and bashing the non-fans so let's continue to keep things positive. Thanks!!

Of course, I wouldn't want to be the cause of any hostility.

Edit: I have since discovered that this persons opinions of the whole series have based on not quite getting to the end of Twilight. So she hasn't given them a fair trial in my view. She may just as well have judged the book by it's cover and not read a single word. She admits that just reading the blurb she had already made up her mind about what to expect.

With that kind of preconcieved notion, it's no wonder she is so negative. She never gave them a chance and I doubt she will, which sadly is her loss.

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"It never made sense for you to love me.I always knew that."

What always annoys me by 'oh she stole this idea' stuff is that there are only so many types of story lines avaliable and that the greatest writers borrowed ideas from others. The Canterbury Tales, Shakespeare's plays, all used older sources and made the story their own, people are constantly influenced by what they come into contact with. And of course our best defense is always that Steph hasn't even seen/read the things they claim she's stolen from!

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'Nobody minds having what is too good for them.' 'How quick come the reasons for approving what we like!'

JessLynn wrote:

What always annoys me by 'oh she stole this idea' stuff is that there are only so many types of story lines avaliable and that the greatest writers borrowed ideas from others. The Canterbury Tales, Shakespeare's plays, all used older sources and made the story their own, people are constantly influenced by what they come into contact with. And of course our best defense is always that Steph hasn't even seen/read the things they claim she's stolen from!

I agree. Every writer knows there are four main themes in EVERY story:
Man versus man.
Man versus nature.
Man versus self.
Man versus God.

Every story is twisted in it's own way. The author brings it to life with their words, language, characters. That's what being a storyteller is all about.

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Josephine wrote:

JessLynn wrote: What always annoys me by 'oh she stole this idea' stuff is that there are only so many types of story lines avaliable and that the greatest writers borrowed ideas from others. The Canterbury Tales, Shakespeare's plays, all used older sources and made the story their own, people are constantly influenced by what they come into contact with. And of course our best defense is always that Steph hasn't even seen/read the things they claim she's stolen from! I agree. Every writer knows there are four main themes in EVERY story: Man versus man. Man versus nature. Man versus self. Man versus God. Every story is twisted in it's own way. The author brings it to life with their words, language, characters. That's what being a storyteller is all about.

Very true!

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Thanks for that. I knew that somewhere someone would be able to recall the themes. I have Googling all over the place trying to find them!

It is so true...and every story is a variation on those themes.

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"It never made sense for you to love me.I always knew that."

It is also likely that this person's dislikes come from the fact that they have never felt like this about anyone. In turn they have never had anyone feel like this about them. Keep this in mind and have a little empathy for them. Hopefully one day it will happen for them also.

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Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds- Albert Einstein

Loyalty to petrified opinions never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul- Mark Twain

JessLynn wrote:

What always annoys me by 'oh she stole this idea' stuff is that there are only so many types of story lines avaliable and that the greatest writers borrowed ideas from others. The Canterbury Tales, Shakespeare's plays, all used older sources and made the story their own, people are constantly influenced by what they come into contact with. And of course our best defense is always that Steph hasn't even seen/read the things they claim she's stolen from!

Absolutely. I have immersed myself in vampire lore since I was a child, starting with Anne Rice. I am extremely familiar with Buffy and I see little to no similarity between it and the Twilight universe, aside from some of the Buffy/Angel Bella/Edward dynamics. It's inevitable that all vampire stories would share some common traits, considering that the lore is a bit limiting, but Stephenie has definitely twisted it and made it quite original. And I'm a picky reader/movie goer, etc...I don't get into shallow, uninspired copies of things that have come before.

One thing I did notice about many of the anti Twilight fans were the posts that would start with 'I did like Twilight at first but then I realized it was sooo stupid!' I have to wonder how many of these are teenagers that caved under pressure from friends to change their opinions. That I can't really hold against them, but it's a life lesson we all need to learn...can't please everyone so sometimes you just gotta stick to pleasing yourself.

People love to be bash SM's work, at least a certain type of critic.

And they are usually people who see her works as:

1) derivative of something recent, like Buffy

2) not being quality writing.

3) setting women back 30 years

4) Cliched

re:

1) Buffy is high concept. I love Buffy, but it's definitely a storyline that fused modern irony and wit with traditional vampire lore. The Twilight series is somewhat high concept too, but that puts them in the same boat. Not in a situation where SM is plaguerizing. It's a very silly argument.
The idea of taken a nonhuman character and humanizing them is nothing new, and it certainly didn't start with Buffy. Heck, you could argue Buffy stole that concept from "Toy Story" if you want to get technical, or any Pixar movie you want. It's essentially dealing with the "Pinnochio complex/I wanna be a real boy" that you seen in literature time and time again.


2)You know what? SM's writing style could be called "unfashionable" for this day and time. Who cares? I actually LOVE the fact she tells her stories in her voice, without pretension. She simply unfolds her tales her way, and I love that. I don't want her to try to write like someone else or in a way that in unauthentic for her-this is her style and voice, and I appreciate that.

3)This argument is so misinformed, it's almost sad. Trying to apply gender politics to these stories is a sign that the person doesn't know how to distinguish between reality and fantasy. Because it's not gender that is at issue you here--it's humanity vs. vampirehood. Bella's humanity, not her gender is what makes her vulnerable. And even then, she insists on trying to be the hero--with her mom in Twilight, and then Edward in New Moon. That's not a damsel in distress if you ask me.

4)Cliched. I would beg to differ. I think she has been very clever in fusing modern elements of storytelling with more gothic elements from literature. And it's usually the gothic elements that make people complain things feel "cliched." They just don't understand how different literary genres "work" basically--and that ain't SM's fault!

Listen, I'm a huge literary snob myself at times. But I unapologetically love SM and her stories. I think she put a fresh spin on the coming of age story, I think her take on first love has an almost documentarian feel to it, and her characters stay with you long after you read the book. Let critics complain all they want-SM is a great storyteller and her tales have alot of love and heart in them.

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"Would You Like a Side Of Cougar To Go With Your Mountain Lion, Edward?"
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(I never thought a set of brothers could challenge the Bluth Boys' hotness-then the Cullens came along!)

Ferrarimum, I think your anger is well-justified, and the non-fan's opinions don't hold much water, especially since that person doesn't seem to have finished the first book, even. You should just take it as a positive sign that Twilight is so tremendously successful and loved that it would inevitably attract attention, good and bad. If Twilight was just another book quickly destined for the pulp fiction pile there wouldn't be any sort of reaction at all. Twilight has "celebrity" status now, and as with any celebrity there are the savage critics. That just goes with the territory. I think that the ratio of positive to negative opinions would be about a million to one. Breathe, and just imagine Jasper in the room right now...

My biggest annoyance is that in her original post (she has made another trying to defend herself) is her reference to the fact that she likes to think of herself as a cerebral person. Almost as if she is saying that those of us who read and enjoyed Twilight etc, were not cerebral. Luckily the site administrator, a Twilight fan and friend, was also inscensed at the inferrence that we reads were not cerebral and posted in our defence.

The , I'll say humourous, thing about this, is her sentences had no depth. They all ran on, hardly a comma, colon, semi colon in sight, and none of her words had substance. I like to have interesting words to read, words like adjectives and adverbs and nouns, oh but what yuk no, do not an interesting read make!

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"It never made sense for you to love me.I always knew that."

ferrarimum wrote:

My biggest annoyance is that in her original post (she has made another trying to defend herself) is her reference to the fact that she likes to think of herself as a cerebral person. Almost as if she is saying that those of us who read and enjoyed Twilight etc, were not cerebral. Luckily the site administrator, a Twilight fan and friend, was also inscensed at the inferrence that we reads were not cerebral and posted in our defence. The , I'll say humourous, thing about this, is her sentences had no depth. They all ran on, hardly a comma, colon, semi colon in sight, and none of her words had substance. I like to have interesting words to read, words like adjectives and adverbs and nouns, oh but what yuk no, do not an interesting read make!

I've actually had a similar conversation with a person over these books. "Cerebral" was even brought up.

And the way I sorta responded was to first explain how the Twilight series can engage you cerebrally. There are themes within it for a young adult novel that are very intriguing. For instance, the notion of free will and agency is a reocurring theme in the book that can engage someone. The notion of dualism and competing natures within our own humanity is given a great metaphor in the form of Edward. The intensity and almost obsessive nature of first love is another great theme.

And lastly, it's nice to explain to them that literature should not be approached strictly from a "cerebral" perspective. Literature is an art form, and should engage you on a variety of levels simultaneously to enjoy it's full effects. That includes your emotional and intuitive sides too that will "get" why Bella may do some really crazy, insane things even if they don't seem reasonable.

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"Would You Like a Side Of Cougar To Go With Your Mountain Lion, Edward?"
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(I never thought a set of brothers could challenge the Bluth Boys' hotness-then the Cullens came along!)

ferrarimum wrote:

So I have been posting in a thread on another site with a number of like minded obsessed females, when out of the blue along comes another poster who asks if she can post her thoughts as they are not in keeping with everyone elses. I suggested...nicely...that she doesn't because, I don't want to be the cause of a hostile environment, and what does she do? She makes the longest post in history using comments like the books are full of cliche, Bella has no substance or passions, all the characters are flawed, they are fan fiction and the lead is a Mary Sue character that constantly needs rescuing.

Like-minded, obsessed females? Am I to assume this is also a Twilight fanboard, or is it of another subject?

If it is a Twilight fanboard, then the negative poster is in the wrong. It is just plain stupid of the poster to attempt to raise hell by purposely going to a fanboard and purposely agitating the other members (who will ALL not share her opinion). If, however, it is not a specific Twilight board . . . no offense, Ferrarimum, but I think that so long as the negative poster is adhering to the forum's rules, there's no need to make a fuss over it. You can get mad in private all you want, sure, but it doesn't change the fact that not everybody is going to like Twilight, and not everyone is going to keep quiet about that particular dislike. Love and hate are two very similar emotions, and if you are very vocal about your love of the books, then you can bet your butt that others with opposing views will most likely be just as vocal.

I was bullied off another message board for expressing my distaste in the books (don't slay me; I'm admitting it now. I'm not a Twilight fan, and never will be, but I LOVE the Twilight Moms. You guys are great. But you won't see me stupidly outlining all that I dislike about the books on a TWILIGHT site; I steer clear of most of the Twilight threads. Yes, I have read all three books, yes, I have been in love before, and yes, my opinion was formed independently. Not everyone who dislikes Twilight has to have an external reason for doing so, as a lot of the previous posters have speculated.), and it was a Henry Cavill fan board, NOT a Twilight board. Not naming names, but they know who they are. I was told that I was an idiot with lousy taste in books, and that my opinion didn't matter because it was a best-seller. They even began to attack my intelligence, my way of life (they called me a child molester, to which I just have to say, what the heck?!), and wrote degrading poetry about me. I have to repeat, it was NOT a Twilight board. I was permitted to say whatever I wished about the subject; the board's only rule was "play nice", and since my original post had nothing to say about Twilight fans in general, I was still adhering to the rules. Their actions had the opposite effect of what they intended: instead of "seeing the light" and changing my opinion, I formed quite a different opinion about Twilight fans, vowed to hate the series even more, and quit the board, taking a number of other members with me. So be careful what you say, if this board is not a Twilight board. You might permanently alienate people from Twilight -- not just the negative poster, but anyone who might read any remarks you have to say that might even be remotely taken as opinion-bashing. A person really shouldn't have to "stand up" for their opinion. It's their opinion, and they are entitled to it, no matter what their reasons. Arguing with them over their opinion isn't going to do any good.

If it's a Twilight board, you have every right to delete her post. If it's not, just keep in mind that people are allowed to have differing opinions. It doesn't make them evil, it just means they think differently than you do.

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The enemy's gate is down.

I was bullied off another message board for expressing my distaste in the books (don't slay me; I'm admitting it now. I'm not a Twilight fan, and never will be, but I LOVE the Twilight Moms.


Just curious, but if your not a fan of Twilight, why did you join this site, a site for Twilight fans???

JRHatto wrote:

I was bullied off another message board for expressing my distaste in the books (don't slay me; I'm admitting it now. I'm not a Twilight fan, and never will be, but I LOVE the Twilight Moms. Just curious, but if your not a fan of Twilight, why did you join this site, a site for Twilight fans???

It's a long story. In short, one of my best friends is a Twilight Mom and dragged me to the Utah TM events. I made friends, loved the people, and changed my general opinion on Twilight fans based on how nice they were. I'm on here to keep in touch and enjoy general conversation with the TMs.

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The enemy's gate is down.