Steph asks:

"Is there anything to Bella's theory about WH providing a good foil to a normal love story, as love is the "only redeeming quality" either of the main characters have?"

Wuthering Heights certainly provides sharp contrast to the Love of Twilight World. Bella in her misery sees herself as Cathy, poisoning everyone she comes into contact with....However having read WH we know that Cathy's self destruction was caused by her selfish and mean nature, by deliberate action, whereas Bella just lacked insight into her relationships.

I can't really respond to this because I'm not convinced that what they (C&H) shared was really LOVE.

I think Bella's view of WH is completely valid. We can all use it as a handbook on how not to love and be loved. Edward is the antithesis of Heathcliff...we all know Edward's redeeming qualities go far beyond his ability to love. And, even though Bella is insecure, unlike Cathy, her love for Edward is unselfish and she is completely deserving of the depth of love that Edward feels for her.

Bella's veiw is centered on the characters in the book having only one redeemable quality which is their love. But I think she and many of us walk away from that book thinking if HeathCliff and Catherine could gain someones affections even with all their shortcomings then I who have much more redeemable qualities - am I not worthy and able to gain the affections of someone as well?

It kind of pumps us up and guides us away from some pitfalls....
-K

I love your point here. I think, even though I MUCH prefer happy endings all around, that it's almost as important to read/know about unhappy endings and what causes them. To see what can happen if selfishness, greed, etc. are allowed to rule our actions rather us controlling those urges.

ahhhhh... but therein you have the trouble... her love for Jacob is VERY selfish.

This is interesting. I don't perceive Bella's love of Jacob as selfish at all. Being an 18 year old girl with no experience with boys or being in love before she moved to Forks, I perceive it more as overwhelming confusion than selfishness. She didn't recognize what she felt for Jacob as love at first because it looked and felt differently from the love she feels for Edward. If you've never been in love before, how do you know that there are differences? Or, for that matter, that it's even possible to love two different people at the same time, just for different reasons. I feel, if she were selfish in the truest sense of the word, Jacob would still be at home with Billy, clinging to the hope that he can still win Bella away from Edward. Love can be an entirely confusing, utterly senseless experience sometimes and I think she handled it in the best way that she was equipped to handle it at the time. In other words, she winged it....and, unfortunately made mistakes and got more than a few things wrong.

But even she torments herself (prior to the end of eclipse) with how selfish she is when it comes to Jacob. So, even if we may not think it is... she see's it as selfish. So , where does that leave her on the catherine scale? Even though, to me, she did redeem herself at the end of Eclipse in a way Catherine never did before her death....

Too true, Bella does see it as selfish, but Bella torments and second guesses herself about everything...which makes me very angry at her sometimes. She's really hard on herself. That darn low self esteem thing...grrr. I don't think it even puts her in the same universe with Catherine. Bella's redemption comes from her kindness and pureness of heart....her utter lack of selfishness....she does always try to do the right thing by everyone else; often ignoring what's right for her in the process.

excellent points....

You both bring up important features.

I've been thinking about what you've said and this is what I'm wondering:

Is part of Bella's feeling for Jacob coming from a sense of *obligation to love him back* simply because HE loves HER and suffers from it so?

Have you ever made yourself be friends with someone only because they wanted to be friends with you? You weren't all that drawn to them, didn't enjoy their company all that much, yet you felt obliged to spend time with them because THEY liked YOU? Like you had a responsibility not to hurt them?

I'm concerned that some of what Bella feels for Jacob stems from remorse and obligation. The rest is a combination of genuine affection/friendship/gratitude as well as the knowledge that with him she'd have all the things she's giving up to be with Edward. So make that affection/friendship/gratitude/opportunity.

Beautifully put. I agree wholeheartedly.

When Edward left, Bella was just struggling to survive. She knew Jacob's feelings were stronger than hers, but he was willing to hang in there and she was going to try to give as much of herself to him as she could. She always told him the truth. I don't think this was selfish.

Then Edward came back (yipee). Would it have been right for Bella to completely dump Jacob? That would have been very cruel. Yes, it was a mess. Bella did not handle things perfectly, but she was trying to do the right thing.

I think love really is HC and Cathy's only redeeming trait. I never doubted that they cared for each other deeply and passionately but love alone is not enough.

I can see the parallels between Eclipse and WH, but Bella is nothing like Cathy and Edward and Jacob are the opposite of HC.

I agree Bella's nothing like catherine but Jacob/Edward may be more like Edgar Linton... at various times....