Discussion Points by Steph 2 "Why does this book that...

**lisa**

Steph asks:

"Why does this book that sucks so heartily stay with us for so long?"

**Jenny** · Posted: Thu Jan 10, 2008 9:13 am Post subject:

These ?'s are cracking me up. You gotta love Steph. She's awesome.
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Sarahpat and me, and our boyfriend!

"Well, I'm nearly a hundred and ten. It's time I settled down."

**DarlaG**

**Shimmerskin** · Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 4:04 pm Post subject:

Dang, you're good, Darla!

When I was a child reading WH I absolutely believed in HC & Catherine's love, and I believed Catherine was reaching out to him beyond the grave because such a connection could not be broken, and I believed HC's cruelty was explained by him being only half a person, only half-human, without his Catherine.

As an adult, I believe this book is a grand treatise on what happens when children are warped by abuse, fanaticism, neglect, indulgence, and all the other ills a household can visit upon a youngster. They grow up to continue, even increase, the cycle.

I agree with you that the true love in this story is young Cathy's and Hareton's. They are the remake of Catherine & HC; she the indulged, petted Catherine before Hindley and Joseph and Fate eroded her, he the ignorant, unloved HC prior to his discovery by Mr. Earnshaw...and though their situations continue to worsen just as their forebears' did, somehow they manage to break the cycle and make it go the right way in the end, the way we wish Catherine & HC would have done for themselves.

No. Make that the way Catherine & HC should have done FOR EACH OTHER.

Had they truly been more invested in what was right for one another, instead of being so consumed with what they wanted for themselves, they could have succeeded against all odds, and deserved it.

And while I'm no longer certain this is a ghost story, there's definitely a lot of haunting going on. The characters are haunted without relief by their fears and mistakes, by grief and melancholy, by lost opportunities, unfulfilled desire, bitterness, hatred, unrealized potential....You can't tread two steps in this landscape without tripping over Shades of regret.

**queenofmycastle** · Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:59 pm Post subject:

Simply put, I think it sticks with you because it goes against everything that we believe a true love story should be. It's feelings and emotions are so raw and twisted and the characters are so richly fleshed out. BTW, I don't think the book sucks... Embarassed

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**Utterly Ridiculous** · Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2008 11:15 pm Post subject:

I think it sticks with you because even though it's a tortured love story at best, the unwavering, unfailing devotion Heathcliff has for Catherine -- no matter the pain she puts him through -- is a love and devotion that secretly we all covet. To be loved so completely and deeply FOR all off our faults --- not in SPITE of them.
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"The way you regard me is ludicrous" ~ Edward Cullen

**KristinLynn**

**Shimmerskin** · Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 10:27 am Post subject:

**Utterly Ridiculous** · Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 1:09 pm Post subject:

**doreansmomma** · Posted: Sat Jan 12, 2008 4:25 pm Post subject:

I think it has lasted throughout the ages because of how love turns the story to a good ending and as Bella states that love was their only redeeming quality!
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"I Love you. I want you. Right now." ~ Edward in Eclipse Page 619

**Jenny** · Posted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 5:52 pm Post subject:

You have all made some great points. It is so different from the love stories that we've come to expect and love.

But if love is really the only endearing quality is it enough?

Catherine is self-indulgent and selfish.
Heathcliff is vengeful and cruel.

What if they had ended up together? I doubt they would have had a happy ending. I think they would have destoyed each other. With love there also needs to be kindness, tolerance, generosity, selflessness, thoughtfulness, etc, etc. I don't think love is enough, even true love, which I think they did have. What a waste.
_________________

Sarahpat and me, and our boyfriend!

"Well, I'm nearly a hundred and ten. It's time I settled down."

**Shimmerskin** · Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 7:14 am Post subject:

**queenofmycastle** · Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 9:30 am Post subject:

**Shimmerskin** · Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:01 am Post subject:

All right! Awesome analysis!!

Do you also think, in addition to Catherine always feeling socially superior (with all the problems that would cause), that HC would always feel himself to be her inferior?

He doesn't act like he feels that way but it's probably a facade of self-protectiveness and a stubborn refusal to appear vulnerable. And perhaps he really doesn't feel second-class next to other people except her. Does she have him convinced that he cannot ever be good enough for her, do you think?

BTW, I like your comparison of WH to GWTW. However, I disagree about the characterization of Rhett as vengeful and spiteful. I do agree that he can be arrogant and selfish with an easy contempt for society in general (and plantation society in particular) but I believe he's always honest with himself and about his motives, and he does have his own peculiar code of honor that he adheres to strictly, and which doesn't allow for revenge and spite.

He has a *wicked* sense of humor and fondness for the absurd, which might be interpreted as spitefulness in certain situations (like when he saves Ashley from the law by pretending they're all drunk from a night at Belle's), but I still don't think he's being vicious. I'm willing to hear why you think he has those traits similar to HC's, though.

As I see it, HC goes out of his way to be cruel, and the more helpless the victim, the nastier he treats them.

I believe Rhett Butler would deem it beneath himself to behave that way.

**queenofmycastle** · Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: