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Joanne Maria
Topaz Vampire
Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 3186
Location: crying in the midst of a boundless labyrinth of ancient trees *New York*
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 Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Shimmerskin wrote: |
| AllAboutEdward wrote: |
| I do understand Stephenie's point about Bella not recognizing it as love because it was so different from what she had with Edward, but with Bella's inhanced intuition I think she should have had an idea. |
I think that deep down she knew it, but she didn't want to know it--too messy, too difficult, too guilty-making, too much of a decision to be made--so she pretended to herself that she didn't know she was in love with Jacob. She pushed it way down where she wouldn't have to examine it, wouldn't let it out in the light, blocked it from view. She had an eclipse of her feelings for Jake.
Maybe the title isn't only about Edward blocking out Jacob's sun. Maybe it partly refers to Bella's own emotional eclipse. |
Also..perhaps not wanting to go to the LOVE thing again, afraid of getting hurt again!!!
QUOTE: SIMON & GARFUNKEL-"If I'd never loved I'd never would have cried". "I am a ROCK, I am a island".
_________________
"I didn't want to be the monster! I didn't want to kill this room full of harmless children! I didn't want to lose everything I'd gained
in a lifetime of sacrifice and denial!
I wouldn't! She couldn't make me.
*EDWARD-Midnight Sun*
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Sanguina
Volturi Mom
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 2523
Location: Robert's home town! Wanna go for a pint Rob?
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Shimmerskin wrote: |
| AllAboutEdward wrote: |
| I do understand Stephenie's point about Bella not recognizing it as love because it was so different from what she had with Edward, but with Bella's inhanced intuition I think she should have had an idea. |
I think that deep down she knew it, but she didn't want to know it--too messy, too difficult, too guilty-making, too much of a decision to be made--so she pretended to herself that she didn't know she was in love with Jacob. She pushed it way down where she wouldn't have to examine it, wouldn't let it out in the light, blocked it from view. She had an eclipse of her feelings for Jake.
Maybe the title isn't only about Edward blocking out Jacob's sun. Maybe it partly refers to Bella's own emotional eclipse. |
This is how I feel about ALL of the titles. They have all had double meaning or triple in some cases for me.
Yes, Bella knew she loved Jake, but she was in denial, and sometimes denial can fool so completely that the truth is buried in the subconscious to a depth that is nearly impenetrable.
_________________
"I prefer brunettes." - Edward Cullen
"Those who fear death do not enjoy life."
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Sanguina
Volturi Mom
Joined: 17 Mar 2008
Posts: 2523
Location: Robert's home town! Wanna go for a pint Rob?
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| Posted: Fri Apr 18, 2008 10:35 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry for the double post but I just finished reading the bit in Eclipse with the Bella/Jacob kiss in it to my husband. He is extremely mad at Bella right now, says she doesn't deserve either of them, especially not Edward!
I didn't get into all the semantics and layers with him, I just let him experience the anger he felt towards her. I doubt he will ever read the books a second time or analyze it the ways we have unless through conversation with me but to see his reaction has been very entertaining and enlightening for me.
_________________
"I prefer brunettes." - Edward Cullen
"Those who fear death do not enjoy life."
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Amie
Volturi Mom
Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 1546
Location: Idaho
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:30 am Post subject: |
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| Shimmerskin wrote: |
| AllAboutEdward wrote: |
| I do understand Stephenie's point about Bella not recognizing it as love because it was so different from what she had with Edward, but with Bella's inhanced intuition I think she should have had an idea. |
I think that deep down she knew it, but she didn't want to know it--too messy, too difficult, too guilty-making, too much of a decision to be made--so she pretended to herself that she didn't know she was in love with Jacob. She pushed it way down where she wouldn't have to examine it, wouldn't let it out in the light, blocked it from view. She had an eclipse of her feelings for Jake.
Maybe the title isn't only about Edward blocking out Jacob's sun. Maybe it partly refers to Bella's own emotional eclipse. |
I think this is great because I agree I do think that Bella knew she was in love with Jacob she just did not want to admit it to herself because she wanted Edward so she was trying really hard to make it work as a friend ship with Jacob because she did not want to lose him and if she had to admit she was in love with two guys then she knew one would get hurt so at first it was easier to suppress those feelings for Jacob because then she did not have to hurt anyone even though on the way of trying to do this she did hurt someone but I think she was hurting right along with it. She was trying so hard to do the right thing and in her mind the right thing was to be Jacobs’s friend and to be with Edward. This is also why I think she had a hard time at first with the wedding thing was because she new she could not give her whole heart to one of these guys without letting out the true feelings for the other. So to make things easier I think to a point she suppressed her feelings for both because she did not want to hurt either.
Okay have no idea if that made any sense sorry
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Shimmerskin
Volturi Mom
Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 2745
Location: Revolving around a MIDNIGHT SUN...
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| Posted: Sat Apr 19, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Amie wrote: |
| This is also why I think she had a hard time at first with the wedding thing was because she new she could not give her whole heart to one of these guys without letting out the true feelings for the other. So to make things easier I think to a point she suppressed her feelings for both because she did not want to hurt either. |
Oh, wow, Amie! Really, really, really good observation about Bella's reluctance for the marriage. I always thought there had to be more to it than just Renee's attitude coming out in her. What you said makes so much sense to me.
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hfiles28
Onyx Vampire
Joined: 26 Jan 2008
Posts: 510
Location: Herriman, UT
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| Posted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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| Shimmerskin wrote: |
| Amie wrote: |
| This is also why I think she had a hard time at first with the wedding thing was because she new she could not give her whole heart to one of these guys without letting out the true feelings for the other. So to make things easier I think to a point she suppressed her feelings for both because she did not want to hurt either. |
Oh, wow, Amie! Really, really, really good observation about Bella's reluctance for the marriage. I always thought there had to be more to it than just Renee's attitude coming out in her. What you said makes so much sense to me. |
I never looked at that way!! Very good It does make alot of sense.
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Medoraly
Newborn
Joined: 20 Apr 2008
Posts: 85
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:05 am Post subject: |
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What a fabulous thread!
I hated the triangle as a reader but as a writer it was brilliant because Meyer showed us that Bella has other options - a good option of a boy her father adores, marriage, children, community, girlfriends (she and Emily seemed to get on well), and that picture-perfect human life. I think I read that Stephanie had said "what is true love untested" or something like that and that's what Eclipse showed us, that E/B's love was tested and they came through it and back to one another. As painful as Eclipse was for me in many parts, coming back to it and doing a close-read showed me just how masterfully crafted it is as a whole and perfect for this part of the E/B relationship. Now when E/B get their happy ending it will be even more believable to me. I hate to say it but I wouldn't mind a touch of Jealous!Bella in BD so the situation can be reversed a bit. Just a bit.
Like other's have stated, my issue was not with Bella loving both Edward and Jacob because it was true to character and plot, and I like Jacob even if Edward (and Sam!) is my favorite character and could see Jacob's motivations. As a reader, I had (and still do) take issue with Bella acting on her feelings because she was committed to Edward. I cannot imagine doing such a thing (and I was engaged for five years) and not really acknowledge that I had cheated on my fiance. Further, it was never addressed, which angers me a bit and I hope that E/B do address it in BD.
Up thread someone mentioned that Bella's marriage jitters may stem from her unresolved at the time love for Jacob and I am willing to buy that because Bella's lack of excitement to marry Edward when she wants to vamp to spend eternity with him had me tearing my hair out.
_________________
And the last seven months meant nothing. And his words in the forest meant nothing. And it did not matter if he did not want me. I would never want anything but him, no matter how long I lived. - Bella
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Shimmerskin
Volturi Mom
Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 2745
Location: Revolving around a MIDNIGHT SUN...
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:28 am Post subject: |
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| Amie wrote: |
| Up thread someone mentioned that Bella's marriage jitters may stem from her unresolved at the time love for Jacob and I am willing to buy that because Bella's lack of excitement to marry Edward when she wants to vamp to spend eternity with him had me tearing my hair out. |
Yes, Amie made that contribution and it was brilliant. Notice especially how quick Bella was to capitulate once she had resolved the situation with Jacob. As soon as she knew her own mind--that her choice is and always will be Edward, and Jacob is the option she won't be taking--she suddenly started getting more comfortable, more willing, less "resigned" about the idea of marriage. We know some of her previous reluctance was a product of her upbringing, but a lot of it must have been because she couldn't completely commit to a marriage as long as she was at an emotional crossroads. She had to look at the two possible paths her life could take and firmly set herself on one while effectively turning her back on the other. Only then could she seriously think about marrying Edward and embrace the reasons why that would be a good thing. Her reasons for planning a wedding may not yet be all her own, she may still be of two minds about it, but she's no longer of two hearts about it.
That seems like verification of things Stephenie has said about Jacob's part in the triangle being over. The choice is made and it's time to move the story forward.
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nighttimepatronofthearts
Volturi Mom
Joined: 22 Feb 2008
Posts: 2242
Location: Scotrun, Pennsylvania
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:17 am Post subject: |
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| Shimmerskin wrote: |
| Amie wrote: |
| Up thread someone mentioned that Bella's marriage jitters may stem from her unresolved at the time love for Jacob and I am willing to buy that because Bella's lack of excitement to marry Edward when she wants to vamp to spend eternity with him had me tearing my hair out. |
Yes, Amie made that contribution and it was brilliant. Notice especially how quick Bella was to capitulate once she had resolved the situation with Jacob. As soon as she knew her own mind--that her choice is and always will be Edward, and Jacob is the option she won't be taking--she suddenly started getting more comfortable, more willing, less "resigned" about the idea of marriage. We know some of her previous reluctance was a product of her upbringing, but a lot of it must have been because she couldn't completely commit to a marriage as long as she was at an emotional crossroads. She had to look at the two possible paths her life could take and firmly set herself on one while effectively turning her back on the other. Only then could she seriously think about marrying Edward and embrace the reasons why that would be a good thing. Her reasons for planning a wedding may not yet be all her own, she may still be of two minds about it, but she's no longer of two hearts about it.
That seems like verification of things Stephenie has said about Jacob's part in the triangle being over. The choice is made and it's time to move the story forward. |
I agree, that relationship triangle was like a precipice for Bella. Upbringing does often shape our ideals regarding relationships, but once she could finally come to the reliazation that she did, in fact, love them both, she was able to evaluate the depth of feeling that she had for each one. She was starting to realize that she didn't love Jacob in a romantic way when she wished that he was her brother, which would have permitted her to love him without guilt. She knew that her love for Edward was the deeper, romantic love, and he was the one that she couldn't live without.
_________________
"You're not going to budge me on this."
"I bet I could," he murmured, his eyes burning again.
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Twilightfreak
Onyx Vampire
Joined: 18 Apr 2008
Posts: 102
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 12:34 pm Post subject: |
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I was never mad about Bella falling for Jake. In my eyes it was a different kind of love. Her love for Edward was something she would actually cease to exsist without. Her love for Jacob is strong and true but it's a diffrent kind. It's the you were here for me when i needed someone the most and i do love you and could see us together if ihad never experienced love before. I don't know if this even makes sense to anyone but me.
_________________
Well Gran, You might have noticed that my Boyfriend glitters. It's just something he does in the sun. Don't worry about it. Bella NM
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Amie
Volturi Mom
Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 1546
Location: Idaho
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| Twilightfreak wrote: |
| I was never mad about Bella falling for Jake. In my eyes it was a different kind of love. Her love for Edward was something she would actually cease to exsist without. Her love for Jacob is strong and true but it's a diffrent kind. It's the you were here for me when i needed someone the most and i do love you and could see us together if ihad never experienced love before. I don't know if this even makes sense to anyone but me. |
I understand what you are saying 
Okay you know me have to throw Stephenie's Q&A in here and I found this on her website under eclipse Q&A and how she sees the love. I love how she puts it to and I felt it fit so here it is
http://www.stepheniemeyer.com/ecl_faq.html
| Quote: |
Q. What's the deal with Bella just falling in love with Jacob in the eleventh hour of Eclipse? Don't you believe in true love anymore? What happened to blacken your soul, woman??
A. First of all, let me say that I do believe in true love. But I also deeply believe in the complexity, variety, and downright insanity of love. A lucky person loves hundreds of people in their lives, all in different ways, family love, friendship love, romantic love, all in so many shades and depths. I don't think you lose your ability—or right—to have true love by loving more than one person. In part, this is true because you never love two people the same way. Another part is that, if you're lucky, you learn to love better with practice. The bottom line is that you have to choose who you are going to commit to—that's the foundation of true love, not a lack of other options.
Next, Bella does not fall in love with Jacob in Eclipse. Bella falls in love with Jacob in New Moon. I think it's easy to understand why this fact doesn't occur to her. Bella has only fallen in love one time, and it was a very sudden, dramatic, sweep-you-off-your-feet, change-your-world, magical, passionate, all-consuming thing (see: Twilight). Can you blame her for not recognizing a much more subtle kind of falling-in-love?
Does this love devaluate her love for Edward? Not for me. For me, it makes that perfect true love stronger. Bella has another option. She has a really good one. An option that's easier in many ways, that takes nothing—like her family, present or future—away from her. She would have love, and friendship, and family—an enviable human future. But she chooses Edward over all of this. This makes it real for me.
Allow me to quote from Steve Oedekerk's brilliant Star Wars parody, Thumb Wars:
Loke Groundrunner: "I will go with you and fight!"
Oobedoob Benubi: "Oh, big sacrifice; everyone you knew is dead! Glad you could tear yourself away!" |
I love this I just did not get the very last part of it if anyone else did what does that mean were she qoutes the star wars part 
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Amie
Volturi Mom
Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 1546
Location: Idaho
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:56 pm Post subject: |
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| Shimmerskin wrote: |
| Amie wrote: |
| Up thread someone mentioned that Bella's marriage jitters may stem from her unresolved at the time love for Jacob and I am willing to buy that because Bella's lack of excitement to marry Edward when she wants to vamp to spend eternity with him had me tearing my hair out. |
Yes, Amie made that contribution and it was brilliant. Notice especially how quick Bella was to capitulate once she had resolved the situation with Jacob. As soon as she knew her own mind--that her choice is and always will be Edward, and Jacob is the option she won't be taking--she suddenly started getting more comfortable, more willing, less "resigned" about the idea of marriage. We know some of her previous reluctance was a product of her upbringing, but a lot of it must have been because she couldn't completely commit to a marriage as long as she was at an emotional crossroads. She had to look at the two possible paths her life could take and firmly set herself on one while effectively turning her back on the other. Only then could she seriously think about marrying Edward and embrace the reasons why that would be a good thing. Her reasons for planning a wedding may not yet be all her own, she may still be of two minds about it, but she's no longer of two hearts about it.
That seems like verification of things Stephenie has said about Jacob's part in the triangle being over. The choice is made and it's time to move the story forward. |
Thanks Shimmerskin I am glad it did not sound like a bunch of babble.
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Shimmerskin
Volturi Mom
Joined: 03 Jan 2008
Posts: 2745
Location: Revolving around a MIDNIGHT SUN...
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:24 pm Post subject: |
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| Amie wrote: |
| Quote: |
Does this love devaluate her love for Edward? Not for me. For me, it makes that perfect true love stronger. Bella has another option. She has a really good one. An option that's easier in many ways, that takes nothing—like her family, present or future—away from her. She would have love, and friendship, and family—an enviable human future. But she chooses Edward over all of this. This makes it real for me.
Allow me to quote from Steve Oedekerk's brilliant Star Wars parody, Thumb Wars:
Loke Groundrunner: "I will go with you and fight!"
Oobedoob Benubi: "Oh, big sacrifice; everyone you knew is dead! Glad you could tear yourself away!" |
I love this I just did not get the very last part of it if anyone else did what does that mean were she qoutes the star wars part |
It means it's an empty sacrifice if you give up nothing. I believe Steph is saying that we can know the depth of Bella's love for Edward because she will knowingly and willingly give up so much for it. It is a love that is "tried and true" meaning it has already been tested and stands up to the tests. Her love for Jacob hasn't been through that refining process, hasn't been tempered from iron into steel, hasn't been proven to stand up to pressures. We don't know if it could or not...but we do know that nothing has deterred her love for Edward, not danger, not separation, not death threats, not loss of hope, not her fears, not other alternatives, not obstacles, not torment, not pain, nothing.
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Amie
Volturi Mom
Joined: 13 Feb 2008
Posts: 1546
Location: Idaho
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Shimmerskin wrote: |
| Amie wrote: |
| Quote: |
Does this love devaluate her love for Edward? Not for me. For me, it makes that perfect true love stronger. Bella has another option. She has a really good one. An option that's easier in many ways, that takes nothing—like her family, present or future—away from her. She would have love, and friendship, and family—an enviable human future. But she chooses Edward over all of this. This makes it real for me.
Allow me to quote from Steve Oedekerk's brilliant Star Wars parody, Thumb Wars:
Loke Groundrunner: "I will go with you and fight!"
Oobedoob Benubi: "Oh, big sacrifice; everyone you knew is dead! Glad you could tear yourself away!" |
I love this I just did not get the very last part of it if anyone else did what does that mean were she qoutes the star wars part |
It means it's an empty sacrifice if you give up nothing. I believe Steph is saying that we can know the depth of Bella's love for Edward because she will knowingly and willingly give up so much for it. It is a love that is "tried and true" meaning it has already been tested and stands up to the tests. Her love for Jacob hasn't been through that refining process, hasn't been tempered from iron into steel, hasn't been proven to stand up to pressures. We don't know if it could or not...but we do know that nothing has deterred her love for Edward, not danger, not separation, not death threats, not loss of hope, not her fears, not other alternatives, not obstacles, not torment, not pain, nothing. |
Thank you I knew you would come through for me that make total sense!!!
Now I like it even more can that be possible?
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multitaskmom
Volturi Mom
Joined: 08 Jan 2008
Posts: 824
Location: Boise
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| Posted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 5:14 pm Post subject: |
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| nighttimepatronofthearts wrote: |
| ...and he was the one that she couldn't live without. |
I think this is key actually. I've shared my crazy story a few times, but when Jared asked me to marry him, I was totally freaked out. And there was still my first love out there (he was just returning home from a two year church mission). My mom was livid with me that I wasn't meeting up with Clint (first love) to assess my feelings for him. The thing is, I knew I still loved him...but it was Jared that I couldn't live without. So in the end, it didn't matter what I felt for anyone else if it was right for me to marry Jared...and it was. He makes me better. He makes me stronger. When he isn't here, my life is a much darker place. I couldn't see myself ever living without him. And that is how I knew what my choice should be. However, it took actually making that choice to finally feel secure in my engagement. I completely understand what you guys are all saying!
I know I've said it before (I think maybe on this thread) that I think Bella clicked with both of these man-boys on the "soul level," but the connection she had with Edward made her soul sing.
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"...you are exactly my brand of heroin[e]."
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