I'm taking Frankie's advice here and starting a new thread where we can discuss all the allegorical, symbolic, and otherwise figurative stuff that may come into play in Breaking Dawn. I'm thinking of the mythological parallels, the "other" book, etc. I really stink at getting the links to work properly, so Frankie, auntie venom (or any other kind helpful soul), please help me get these right.

I'm also on a horse-stunning amount of cold medicines, so bear with me here. The more threads I try to keep up with, the more I'm seeing some unifying themes. I think we may need to go back to all that fun Joseph Campbell (The Power of Myth and The Hero with a Thousand Faces) stuff to get a good grip on this. I am starting to see the whole TW world as another spin on the hero journey, but I think it's a journey for both Edward and Bella.

Campbell says (PoM), "Even in popular novels, the main character is a hero or heroine who has found of done something beyond the normal range of achievement and experience. a hero is someone who has given his or her life to something bigger than oneself...[T]here are two types of deed. One is the physical deed, in which the hero performs a courageous act in battle or saves a life. The other kind is the spiritual deed, in which the hero learns to experience the aupernormal range of human spiritual life and then comes back with a message.
"The usual her adventure begins with someone from whom something has been taken, or who feels there's something lacking in the normal experience available or permitted to the members of his society. This person then takes off on a series of adventures beyond the ordinary, either to recover what has been lost or to discover some life-giving elixir. It's usually a cycle, a going and returning."

So, does this sound like Edward and Bella to anyone else??? I'll stop here, since I've probably bored you all by now.

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Pluckie for President!!!!

I too believe that the tale is allegorical, so I am glad that you started this thread.
In Plato's Allegory of the Cave, a very interesting point of view is shown. What it all boils down to is we believe that certain objects, or beliefs, are identified by what we have been told. We fear things because we don't properly understand them.
We see this theme with Edward, and his struggle with his love for Bella. We can also see it in the stereotypical predjudices between the wolves and vampires, but also between the vampires towards the humans.

I think this would be the thread where we could submit 5 page essay posts on parallels we have drawn from other books!!! I guess since we are getting closer to the end of Edward and Bellla's story that we would start to see everything coming together, so a "big picture" thread is a good idea!

My latest thoughts on where this is going has to do with Dante's "The Divine Comedy". I THINK it is the 2nd book, but I am but a humble housewife in NC. Not SM. I will try to cut and paste from the other thread where this all came up because I am too lazy to type up how this connection all came about.

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"How could there not be more for one such as Edward?"

Well, I'll start with the original allegory theory that Auntie Venom and I came up with:

The key is in my signature quote. It comes from Eclipse. It's Edward speaking, of course.

The theory is that all the talk of losing souls is setting us up for an allegory. Edward will become human. He will be "born again". Of course "born again" is equivalent to "salvation". Edward will be saved from, in his own words "eternal damnation". He is wrong, however, in the last half of his statement. He cannot pay the price of his salvation, although it will be high, since someone else must atone his sins for him.

Edward's present state is also comparable to being in purgatory, or limbo. That discussion started here: http://twilightmomsforums.freeforums.org/what-if-edward-became-human-t116-195.html, which then led to AV's comparison to Dante's Divine Comedy.

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“If there was any way for me to become human for you-no matter what the price was, I would pay it.”

Buzzwords

auntie venom wrote:

I think this would be the thread where we could submit 5 page essay posts on parallels we have drawn from other books!!!

I think this is exactly the place for the 5-page essay post. Feel free.

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Pluckie for President!!!!

All right, I've been digging some more on The Divine Comedy, getting some background on what inspired it, etc. There is info in regards to Saint Lucia/Saint Lucy, who is mentioned in the poem and I should refer you to wikipedia at this point to get her bio so as to keep this short.

But the quote of this religious person that stood out to me, as it may refer to the status of Edward's soul was:

No one's body is polluted so as to endanger the soul if it has not pleased the mind. If you were to lift my hand to your idol and so make me offer against my will, I would still be guiltless in the sight of the true God, who judges according to the will and knows all things. If now, against my will, you cause me to be polluted, a twofold purity will be gloriously imputed to me. You cannot bend my will to your purpose; whatever you do to my body, that cannot happen to me.[6]

This is basically saying that since the vampire exsistence was imposed on Edward without his consent, he should be held guiltless. BOO-YAH.

Oh my goodness, I can already see I am going to get deeeeeep into this.

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"How could there not be more for one such as Edward?"

Hey, auntie venom! Just as I was drifting off to sleep I figured out how I see Divine Comedy fitting into the storyline of these books. Here goes:

*Carlisle* is Virgil and Bella is Beatrice.

In the beginning of the Inferno, Dante finds himself lost and confronts a few wild beasts (I'm still thinking those symbols through). Virgil is the one who is sent to find him and escort him through He** & Purgatory. I'm kind of envisioning Hell as the period of time in which Edward was newborn and again when he was preying on violent criminals. Carlisle/Virgil stays with him continuing to guide him through the deepest pits of the inferno. (Also point of note, the ninth and lowest circle is one in which Satan forever locked in ice -- the original "cold one"?)

Having descended through all the rings of He**, Virgil/Carlisle can now guide Dante/Edward ever upward. Whilst in Purgatory Dante's head is marked with seven Ps, representing the seven deadly sins. As he ascends through each level, an angel removes one of the marks. Over the years, Edward has similarly been learning to control himself. Especially in Eclipse, we see him overcoming several character flaws. Once he (Dante/Edward) is able to do so, he is met in the Earthly Paradise (Garden of Eden) by Beatrice/Bella.

I'm guessing the Earthly Paradise will be represented by E & B's wedding. Guessing it will be an outdoor wedding? Ascending into the Heavenly spheres is where I think Edward becomes human, just as Dante becomes more and more like Beatrice in the purity of his desire, etc. This also plays to Frankie's redemption of the soul theory.

The sad part here is that once Beatrice takes over escorting Dante in the Earthly Paradise, Virgil returns back to his place in Limbo never to be seen by Dante again. If this comparison holds true then it may be that Edward will be separated from his family forever. Will he forget them? This points to the idea of a vamp that can erase memories. I'm guessing the memory-vamp will not be Alec or even Volturi, or they could have offered it as an option for Edward when he and Bella and Alice were in Volterra.

Not quite a 5-pager, but I'm out of practice. I am way sleep deprived, so I apologize if this is rehash or I've forgotten to credit anyone who I should have.

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Pluckie for President!!!!

I think Carlise/Virgil makes great sense. So, would you think that the date in the meadow was "meeting Beatrice in the Garden of Eden"? Surely, Edward's transformation and existence over the past 90 years has been Hell and Purgatory.

I've been doing my own little online Divine Comedy course and if this ISN'T the second book, I will be amazed. There are sooooo many parallels-- and even word choice is so similar.
Even things that seem inconsequential jump out at me.
Dante was a Gemini that died of malaria.
Edward was a gemini that was dying of Spanis Flu.
The Gemini factor is jumping out symbolically as the 2 lives that Edward will have.
It popped into my head that the St. Lucia reference in the poem could turn out to be a Rosalie reference.
The Shroud of Turin is mentioned, which SM almost called Volterra Volturin.
This quote from the poem"
The hour was the beginning of the morning,
And the sun was rising with those stars
That first attended it when divine Love 40 Set these lovely creations round in motion,
So that the early hour and the pleasant season
Gave me good reason to keep up my hopes--- Which is morning twilight or breaking dawn.

I thought this part touched on why Bella isn't affected by other vamp powers"
" 'The only things we really need to fear
Are those that have the power to do harm:
90 Nothing else should cause us to be fearful.
" 'God in his mercy has so fashioned me
That I am not affected by your pain;
The fires burning here do me no hurt.

I will try to put something together and post tomorrow--I'm tired and gotta go to bed for now

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"How could there not be more for one such as Edward?"

I'm still listening to the Eclipse cds, and came to the Quilluette legend part. Go back and read that; where Taha Aki can't reclaim his body, and is stuck in the spirit world. I don't have a hard copy of Eclipse to quote from right now.

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“If there was any way for me to become human for you-no matter what the price was, I would pay it.”

Buzzwords

Man, you guys are speaking my language! I LOVE all things Joseph Campbell/Jungian psychology, but I don't have a good enough working knowledge of Inferno (my guilty confession.) to add much to this discussion. I might have to read it so I can join in-

I have been reading a lot of the Frankie and Auntie Venom threads- you guys are so cool! You have me considering ideas I had never thought of or would have dismissed as unlikely. Your arguments for Edward becoming human are really thought provoking. . .

Quote:

The sad part here is that once Beatrice takes over escorting Dante in the Earthly Paradise, Virgil returns back to his place in Limbo never to be seen by Dante again. If this comparison holds true then it may be that Edward will be separated from his family forever. Will he forget them? This points to the idea of a vamp that can erase memories. I'm guessing the memory-vamp will not be Alec or even Volturi, or they could have offered it as an option for Edward when he and Bella and Alice were in Volterra.

I would be shocked and happy if this played out in the 4th book. Shocked that it happened and the fact that Edward would never get to see his 'family' again. We know how much he loves them dearly. Happy it did happen only for Bella and Edwards sake. The n she doesn't have to make the decision to turn or/ not.
On the other hand I would be sad because Bella then gains her life with family and friends, but Edward looses his.
Once again, you cannot take without giving. Someone will eventually lose.

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Dawn Marie~

I want my own Edward!!

"As long as I'm going to hell, I might as well do it thoroughly." ~ Edward Cullen

dmkoza wrote:

Quote: The sad part here is that once Beatrice takes over escorting Dante in the Earthly Paradise, Virgil returns back to his place in Limbo never to be seen by Dante again. If this comparison holds true then it may be that Edward will be separated from his family forever. Will he forget them? This points to the idea of a vamp that can erase memories. I'm guessing the memory-vamp will not be Alec or even Volturi, or they could have offered it as an option for Edward when he and Bella and Alice were in Volterra. I would be shocked and happy if this played out in the 4th book. Shocked that it happened and the fact that Edward would never get to see his 'family' again. We know how much he loves them dearly. Happy it did happen only for Bella and Edwards sake. The n she doesn't have to make the decision to turn or/ not. On the other hand I would be sad because Bella then gains her life with family and friends, but Edward looses his. Once again, you cannot take without giving. Someone will eventually lose.

BUT---the good thing about SM and the way she uses parallels is--she takes it as far as she wants to and then she lets her own creativity take over.
Such as the parallel between Rosalie's phone call to Edward that Bella was dead and Romeo and Juliet and the missed letter that Juliet is still alive . Had Sm continued in the R&J vein, Edward and Bella would be dead. But she went just soooo far--then took the story in a different direction. Instead of tragedy, we got a reunion!! So, just because we think we have some framework up here that may worry us a little, we still have no idea how she will finish it off. But I'm still looking for hints!!! Remember, we are supposed to have a happy ending, so be postive!!

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"How could there not be more for one such as Edward?"

auntie venom wrote:

dmkoza wrote: Quote: The sad part here is that once Beatrice takes over escorting Dante in the Earthly Paradise, Virgil returns back to his place in Limbo never to be seen by Dante again. If this comparison holds true then it may be that Edward will be separated from his family forever. Will he forget them? This points to the idea of a vamp that can erase memories. I'm guessing the memory-vamp will not be Alec or even Volturi, or they could have offered it as an option for Edward when he and Bella and Alice were in Volterra. I would be shocked and happy if this played out in the 4th book. Shocked that it happened and the fact that Edward would never get to see his 'family' again. We know how much he loves them dearly. Happy it did happen only for Bella and Edwards sake. The n she doesn't have to make the decision to turn or/ not. On the other hand I would be sad because Bella then gains her life with family and friends, but Edward looses his. Once again, you cannot take without giving. Someone will eventually lose. BUT---the good thing about SM and the way she uses parallels is--she takes it as far as she wants to and then she lets her own creativity take over. Such as the parallel between Rosalie's phone call to Edward that Bella was dead and Romeo and Juliet and the missed letter that Juliet is still alive . Had Sm continued in the R&J vein, Edward and Bella would be dead. But she went just soooo far--then took the story in a different direction. Instead of tragedy, we got a reunion!! So, just because we think we have some framework up here that may worry us a little, we still have no idea how she will finish it off. But I'm still looking for hints!!! Remember, we are supposed to have a happy ending, so be postive!!

For me, how SM deals with the Volturi will determine how this plays out. I'm quite curious to know if they'd actually consider letting a vamp that has become human live (without a memory wipe). For the after-life of me, I cannot figure out how to work them into this parallel in a positive way. Help!

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Pluckie for President!!!!

SUCH a great thread. I'm sorry I can't contribute anything, just passing through, but please keep this conversation going, it's awesome.

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auntie venom wrote:

All right, I've been digging some more on The Divine Comedy, getting some background on what inspired it, etc. There is info in regards to Saint Lucia/Saint Lucy, who is mentioned in the poem and I should refer you to wikipedia at this point to get her bio so as to keep this short. But the quote of this religious person that stood out to me, as it may refer to the status of Edward's soul was: No one's body is polluted so as to endanger the soul if it has not pleased the mind. If you were to lift my hand to your idol and so make me offer against my will, I would still be guiltless in the sight of the true God, who judges according to the will and knows all things. If now, against my will, you cause me to be polluted, a twofold purity will be gloriously imputed to me. You cannot bend my will to your purpose; whatever you do to my body, that cannot happen to me.[6] This is basically saying that since the vampire exsistence was imposed on Edward without his consent, he should be held guiltless. BOO-YAH. Oh my goodness, I can already see I am going to get deeeeeep into this.

OOOOHHH! I talked to a friend today about this and she said, "so what does that mean will happen to Bella's soul if she transforms willingly. Will her soul be jeopardized?" HHHMMM? Back to the topic.

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"How could there not be more for one such as Edward?"