I agree with all of the above...

I have always pictured that everyone in that room leaned in just a little bit so they could see the reaction Bella would have to such a heartfelt gift from both Alice and Edward. They were all excited about that moment. They wanted to see every thought and reaction play out for her. All them probably had their guards down a bit. And Jasper was probably so caught up in the emotion in the room that his guard was down even more. And then *BAM* there's blood. They weren't expecting it then and their guards were down (well obviously not Edward's all the way).

As for Phoenix- supreme concentration and effort. Guard NEVER down.

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"...you are exactly my brand of heroin[e]."

Shimmerskin wrote:

urmylifenow wrote: OHHHH! That was good.....thanks missie!!! I also liked readings Steph's insight for the party....I guess I had always just thought of Rosalie's resentment to Bella, and not that Jasper would habor those feelings too....that was interesting. Well, yeah, now that you mention it. Naturally, Jasper would resent anything that presented him with even more difficulty. He has a hard enough time staying on the wagon as it is, and along comes Bella. Think of how hard a recovering alcoholic struggles to stay sober, and then picture yourself waving an open bottle under their nose. They're NOT going to like you much, or the person who brought you home. That's probably another reason why Carlisle tells Edward he's the only one who can reach Jasper (after the attack). I always interpreted it to mean Jasper needs to feel forgiven, and Edward is the one he has trespassed against the most, more even than Bella if you think about it. But you've made me wonder if Jasper needs Edward to come hash it out with him so Edward can be forgiven, too, for having trespassed against Jasper. Wow. I never thought of it that way before. That Carlisle sure is smart. And now I'm thinking he may not have foreseen this accident but he probably anticipated it. He was prepared for it, at any rate, and handled it well. The only thing that didn't get handled was Edward's reaction, but could anyone have gotten through to Edward and persuaded him to stay in Forks? If Carlisle really did anticipate this or something like it (and he must have, because after three+ centuries he has seen it ALL) he probably chose not to challenge Edward's decision. With Rosalie and Jasper already upset about Bella's advent into their lives, and now Edward's melancholy, the family is in disarray. Far better to go along with Edward and take them all away.

Yet another great insight. Okay, Shimmerskin, give it up. Are you a psychologist or something?!

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Pluckie for President!!!!

Onyx wrote:

Shimmerskin wrote: Well, yeah, now that you mention it. Naturally, Jasper would resent anything that presented him with even more difficulty. He has a hard enough time staying on the wagon as it is, and along comes Bella. Think of how hard a recovering alcoholic struggles to stay sober, and then picture yourself waving an open bottle under their nose. They're NOT going to like you much, or the person who brought you home. That's probably another reason why Carlisle tells Edward he's the only one who can reach Jasper (after the attack). I always interpreted it to mean Jasper needs to feel forgiven, and Edward is the one he has trespassed against the most, more even than Bella if you think about it. But you've made me wonder if Jasper needs Edward to come hash it out with him so Edward can be forgiven, too, for having trespassed against Jasper. Wow. I never thought of it that way before. That Carlisle sure is smart. And now I'm thinking he may not have foreseen this accident but he probably anticipated it. He was prepared for it, at any rate, and handled it well. The only thing that didn't get handled was Edward's reaction, but could anyone have gotten through to Edward and persuaded him to stay in Forks? If Carlisle really did anticipate this or something like it (and he must have, because after three+ centuries he has seen it ALL) he probably chose not to challenge Edward's decision. With Rosalie and Jasper already upset about Bella's advent into their lives, and now Edward's melancholy, the family is in disarray. Far better to go along with Edward and take them all away. Yet another great insight. Okay, Shimmerskin, give it up. Are you a psychologist or something?!

You're funny. Nah, I'm not a psychologist or something. Just an observer of human nature, just like you are. Vampire nature too, now, huh? Oh, what good fortune is ours!

So do you think the reason Bella didn't immediately put her "paper-cutted" finger into her mouth--which is what most people would do--is because of her aversion to blood, even her own? If she can't stand to smell it, she'd for sure not want to taste it, right?

But just think for a moment if she had. No one would have seen the blood on her finger and the scent would have been greatly muted. Might Jasper have been able to restrain himself with the lesser stimulus that provided?

If that's true, then once again one of Bella's peculiar characteristics has shaped the future without her consciously realizing it.

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Shimmerskin wrote:

So do you think the reason Bella didn't immediately put her "paper-cutted" finger into her mouth--which is what most people would do--is because of her aversion to blood, even her own? If she can't stand to smell it, she'd for sure not want to taste it, right? But just think for a moment if she had. No one would have seen the blood on her finger and the scent would have been greatly muted. Might Jasper have been able to restrain himself with the lesser stimulus that provided? If that's true, then once again one of Bella's peculiar characteristics has shaped the future without her consciously realizing it.

I think you're right. If she can't stand the smell, the taste would have to be that much worse for her. For what it's worth, I don't stick my finger in my mouth when I get a papercut. I flap my hand around like a demented bird and then I squeeze the cut real tight for a few minutes. Jasper would've gotten past my amazing defense at the first flap. Yikes!

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Pluckie for President!!!!

Onyx wrote:

Shimmerskin wrote: So do you think the reason Bella didn't immediately put her "paper-cutted" finger into her mouth--which is what most people would do--is because of her aversion to blood, even her own? If she can't stand to smell it, she'd for sure not want to taste it, right? But just think for a moment if she had. No one would have seen the blood on her finger and the scent would have been greatly muted. Might Jasper have been able to restrain himself with the lesser stimulus that provided? If that's true, then once again one of Bella's peculiar characteristics has shaped the future without her consciously realizing it. I think you're right. If she can't stand the smell, the taste would have to be that much worse for her. For what it's worth, I don't stick my finger in my mouth when I get a papercut. I flap my hand around like a demented bird and then I squeeze the cut real tight for a few minutes. Jasper would've gotten past my amazing defense at the first flap. Yikes!

Heck, your ritual would have thrown Jasper so off guard that would have knocked him out with that flapping hand

HAHAHA! Glad I am not the only one that flaps around like a crazy person when they cut themselves....

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multitaskmom wrote:

I agree with all of the above... I have always pictured that everyone in that room leaned in just a little bit so they could see the reaction Bella would have to such a heartfelt gift from both Alice and Edward. They were all excited about that moment. They wanted to see every thought and reaction play out for her. All them probably had their guards down a bit. And Jasper was probably so caught up in the emotion in the room that his guard was down even more. And then *BAM* there's blood. They weren't expecting it then and their guards were down (well obviously not Edward's all the way). As for Phoenix- supreme concentration and effort. Guard NEVER down.

Exactly

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Quote:

I've never, not for a moment, felt that Jasper was wrong for going after Bella the night of the party. He is a vampire who has trouble with humans and she was a sweet smelling and bleeding human that caught him off guard. I've always been glad that Bella understood that and never held it against Jasper.

I actually cried when I read this part in the book. Bella says something like "You tell Jasper I'm not mad at him, not at all." For some reason, that just got to me, how she loves all of them, even one who in a moment of weakness made a lunge for her.

and sorry for the double post. I don't know how to quote from multiple people in different posts...

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I have also found this so interesting that if Edward had been just a few seconds slower, Jasper would have got venom into Bella (he wouldn't have drained her with the others pulling him off) and she would already be a vampire. It really does kind of seem that Edward is fighting fate. And if fate is part of it and is part of the reason Alice gets visions that are more about the future events and not particularly connected to immediate decisions (like her visions of Jasper and the Cullens), then maybe that is why she didn't get this vision either...it wasn't meant to be prevented. Just another crazy, rambling thought.

_________________
"...you are exactly my brand of heroin[e]."

multitaskmom wrote:

I have also found this so interesting that if Edward had been just a few seconds slower, Jasper would have got venom into Bella (he wouldn't have drained her with the others pulling him off) and she would already be a vampire. It really does kind of seem that Edward is fighting fate. And if fate is part of it and is part of the reason Alice gets visions that are more about the future events and not particularly connected to immediate decisions (like her visions of Jasper and the Cullens), then maybe that is why she didn't get this vision either...it wasn't meant to be prevented. Just another crazy, rambling thought.

I don't think that's crazy. I think that's brilliant! Just more fuel for the fiery discussion over on the did-Bella-summon-Edward-by-jumping thread...

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Pluckie for President!!!!

multitaskmom wrote:

I have also found this so interesting that if Edward had been just a few seconds slower, Jasper would have got venom into Bella (he wouldn't have drained her with the others pulling him off) and she would already be a vampire. It really does kind of seem that Edward is fighting fate. And if fate is part of it and is part of the reason Alice gets visions that are more about the future events and not particularly connected to immediate decisions (like her visions of Jasper and the Cullens), then maybe that is why she didn't get this vision either...it wasn't meant to be prevented. Just another crazy, rambling thought.

Oooooh, I really, really like this! Thanks!!

So does this mean we're closet Fatalists? I like the term Predestination better

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Shimmerskin wrote:

So does this mean we're closet Fatalists? I like the term Predestination better

I guess in some ways I am a...fatalist...shhhh. But only in the way that we first "choose" that fate. I realize that when James bit Bella, she wasn't quite to the conclusion of her becoming a vampire, but only because she hadn't thought that far ahead yet. It is most definitely what she would choose, even then. So at that point, I think Edward started fighting "fate." Or perhaps Bella's predestination .

_________________
"...you are exactly my brand of heroin[e]."

DebraAnn wrote:

nighttimepatronofthearts wrote: Onyx wrote: I've always wondered a bit about Jasper and his sensitivity to the smell of humans. I think Alice didn't forsee him taking a lunge at Bella because she couldn't have predicted the papercut (not based on a decision) or Jasper's reaction (spur of the moment). It was really weird to me, though, seeing him distance himself from Bella after being so close to her in Phoenix without any (apparent) difficulty. Can't recheck TW, though, 'cause my neighbor still has it... I wonder about that myself. Jasper didn't seem to have any problem in Phoenix. He even physically touched her, so why after all that he had been through with her in closer proximity, would he have regressed to the point of attacking her? I think because with Jasper, it really depends how thirsty he is. When he hasn't fed, his control is not as good, compared to his family.

Yes, this is how I interpreted it. He has much less control when thirsty which is why there are some days when he doesn't go to school either.

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"I prefer brunettes." - Edward Cullen


"Those who fear death do not enjoy life."

Shimmerskin wrote:

I compare this to something that used to happen with my rescued greyhound. She was the sweetest, most loving creature ever BUT she had been trained for racing on live bait What this meant for that poor doggie was that she could coexist peaceably with all our other animals, every size and every species imagineable, except every once in a while when one of the small dogs streaked by, something inside her would snap and before she knew what was happening she had grabbed and shaken it. She always immediately came to her senses and dropped the little one, hanging her head in shame and remorse, but the damage would be done. I think Jasper's attack on Bella was similar. He knows what is right, he wants to do what is right, and he does...except every once in a while something unexpected can cause him to snap and mindlessly react according to his earliest conditioning, which tends to be our strongest influence. Just as my dog's pattern got set during puppyhood, Jasper's was as a newborn. And since, in both examples, that conditioning reinforced their natural prey drive, it is nearly impossible to overcome. So I really feel for poor Jasper

Yes! This is the perfect analogy!

_________________
"I prefer brunettes." - Edward Cullen


"Those who fear death do not enjoy life."

Shimmerskin wrote:

Onyx wrote: Shimmerskin wrote: Well, yeah, now that you mention it. Naturally, Jasper would resent anything that presented him with even more difficulty. He has a hard enough time staying on the wagon as it is, and along comes Bella. Think of how hard a recovering alcoholic struggles to stay sober, and then picture yourself waving an open bottle under their nose. They're NOT going to like you much, or the person who brought you home. That's probably another reason why Carlisle tells Edward he's the only one who can reach Jasper (after the attack). I always interpreted it to mean Jasper needs to feel forgiven, and Edward is the one he has trespassed against the most, more even than Bella if you think about it. But you've made me wonder if Jasper needs Edward to come hash it out with him so Edward can be forgiven, too, for having trespassed against Jasper. Wow. I never thought of it that way before. That Carlisle sure is smart. And now I'm thinking he may not have foreseen this accident but he probably anticipated it. He was prepared for it, at any rate, and handled it well. The only thing that didn't get handled was Edward's reaction, but could anyone have gotten through to Edward and persuaded him to stay in Forks? If Carlisle really did anticipate this or something like it (and he must have, because after three+ centuries he has seen it ALL) he probably chose not to challenge Edward's decision. With Rosalie and Jasper already upset about Bella's advent into their lives, and now Edward's melancholy, the family is in disarray. Far better to go along with Edward and take them all away. Yet another great insight. Okay, Shimmerskin, give it up. Are you a psychologist or something?! You're funny. Nah, I'm not a psychologist or something. Just an observer of human nature, just like you are. Vampire nature too, now, huh? Oh, what good fortune is ours! So do you think the reason Bella didn't immediately put her "paper-cutted" finger into her mouth--which is what most people would do--is because of her aversion to blood, even her own? If she can't stand to smell it, she'd for sure not want to taste it, right? But just think for a moment if she had. No one would have seen the blood on her finger and the scent would have been greatly muted. Might Jasper have been able to restrain himself with the lesser stimulus that provided? If that's true, then once again one of Bella's peculiar characteristics has shaped the future without her consciously realizing it.

Once again Shimmer, BRILLIANT! Always enjoy your posts!

_________________
"I prefer brunettes." - Edward Cullen


"Those who fear death do not enjoy life."